I’m not sure of a better way to contact you, but I feel like I’d benefit from hearing more about your seminary experience/church experience. I recently applied to be an Antiochian seminarian after only a year of being Orthodox and with the advice of a few priests I know. It was turned down (disappointing, but probably for the better). I’m still in the process of working through it and my wife and I are now trying to figure out what’s next. Sounds like you’re coming from a similar religious background (non-denom/baptist) and if you’re up to it I’d love to talk more.
I was chrismated about 4 1/2 years ago, well into middle age and after a different sort of journey, and have had the pleasures and misfortunes of trying to help younger guys on their way in. I have seen these issues, and would add one (or maybe 2) item to your list: Rigorism + Rushing. Saw a guy do a lot of harm to himself and his young family by trying a rigorous rush, and another tie himself up diving headfirst into saints like Maximus and St Mark of Ephesus, and then abandoning it all while tying himself up in theology. Best thing I tell young guys is to just show up, soak it in, and follow Christ - be human first.
I came to have an interest in Orthodox Christianity through a different path: I married a Greek whose parents are from the mountains of Northern Greece where virtually everyone is at least nominally an Orthodox Christian. My husband's extended family regularly vacations in Sithonia which is adjacent to Mount Athos.
Greeks tend to see priests is equals and know there are good and bad priests. They also know that there is corruption in some parts of the Orthodox Church. Still, the Orthodox Church is deeply embedded in Greek life and is, for the most part, a force for good.
I grew up in the United Church of Canada. This Church is a unification of Presbyterians, Methodists and Congregationalists. I still occasionally attend this Church.
It has been interesting to see how the Orthodox Church views Protestant Churches. Largely, they view them as an illegitimate offshoot. I can perhaps understand this attitude about Methodism, but Presbyterianism (the Church of Scotland) is one of the oldest Protestant Churches. The inability of the Orthodox Church to acknowledge some of the legitimate reasons for the Reformation leaves me to feel that the Orthodox Church sometimes denies the political history of the Western of Europe. It seems a little insular and out of touch on this account.
Aug 26, 2023·edited Aug 26, 2023Liked by Benjamin Cabe
Strongly agree with all of this. While I have continually marveled at the beauty and power for the Orthodox faith, I have also seen in myself and others how that faith has been embodied in persistently self-serving ways. Of course, part of the wisdom of Orthodox spiritual practices is to put a check on those very tendencies. Even so, it can take a long time for some of us (okay, me) to work through the various "temptations" -- many of which you have detailed above. Some of this is unavoidable. We all start from a place of naiveté. And so the Beauty we encounter evokes zeal -- as it does in any "romantic" relationship. And, as in any such relationship, this zeal leads to excess and excess to distortion and often failure (it is not usually sustainable). This may lead to genuine humility -- or, more often, our best effort to affect it. Yet this is likely unavoidable (again) since we begin as deeply ego-centric folks. For such folks, genuine humility is an unknown land, so we bump along between various approximations of it until, perhaps, we begin to acquire a modicum of the genuine thing.
For me it has taken decades.
I am now more appreciative than ever of the Orthodox faith and its spiritual wisdom, while recognizing that my journey on this path has been a gradual process of shedding distortions and mistaken assumptions along the way. Reading the modern holy elders has often been very helpful in demonstrating the potentiality and vitality of the faith; at the same time, my experience has also made vividly clear to me what was vividly clear to others from the start: I am not one of them, and -- absent a staggering miracle -- will likely never experience or embody the faith as they did. My own aspirations, mixed as they were with an inherent lack of experience and an undisciplined imagination were perhaps unavoidably prone to delusion, but my focus too often was more on me - my path, my transformation, my experience, my potential in God.
None of this is surprising in retrospect; we all start out ego-centrically. Over time, I found freedom in letting go (okay, losing) that focus and instead simply growing to have a deeper appreciation of God's love. This the Orthodox faith contains in unimaginable abundance. We tend to lose sight of it when we become overly focused on the various means and methods used to support the process of growth and the path to communion with that love. Growing in that love and seeking to embody it faithfully is now more than enough. I have found that it is actually all I could ever want and more than I ever imagined.
Good article. Converting in my 50's after a long journey from Baptist, to Reformed, to Lutheran, and then to Orthodox, the pitfalls you mentioned seem rather foreign. My regret is not becoming Orthodox sooner in life, but you're not ready till you're ready.
I was baptized into the Orthodox Church in Germany, and I lived an hour away from my parish. For the first four years that I was Orthodox, I attended that church, and though I sang in the choir, I wasn't in any way involved in the running of the church (no parish board, etc) and I wasn't really even aware of any factions or politics of the place. My job as a new convert was to show up and take it all in, and participate as a "newbie". I know a lot of people - especially men - are itching to "lead" because they are so excited about Orthodoxy, but whether official or not, I think a four-year "hold" on putting new converts into leadership positions is about right.
I agree with you. There are the problems in orthodox Christian Church that you are telling about. In addition to that problems, I have noticed that even orthodox Church cannot cure believers' sins by means of the existing Church practices, and Church is unwilling to apply different means - psychology and Yoga, putting them in a christian sieve to sellect the relevant methods that can help believers cope with their sins. This is their problem, not every believer's problem. And I think that if someone is unwilling to do something, we should not force him or her to do that. This is their life and their way.
I’m not sure of a better way to contact you, but I feel like I’d benefit from hearing more about your seminary experience/church experience. I recently applied to be an Antiochian seminarian after only a year of being Orthodox and with the advice of a few priests I know. It was turned down (disappointing, but probably for the better). I’m still in the process of working through it and my wife and I are now trying to figure out what’s next. Sounds like you’re coming from a similar religious background (non-denom/baptist) and if you’re up to it I’d love to talk more.
I was chrismated about 4 1/2 years ago, well into middle age and after a different sort of journey, and have had the pleasures and misfortunes of trying to help younger guys on their way in. I have seen these issues, and would add one (or maybe 2) item to your list: Rigorism + Rushing. Saw a guy do a lot of harm to himself and his young family by trying a rigorous rush, and another tie himself up diving headfirst into saints like Maximus and St Mark of Ephesus, and then abandoning it all while tying himself up in theology. Best thing I tell young guys is to just show up, soak it in, and follow Christ - be human first.
I became Orthodox 8 years ago at age 57. Thankfully, I didn't make these mistakes. I love the Orthodox church and will never leave
I came to have an interest in Orthodox Christianity through a different path: I married a Greek whose parents are from the mountains of Northern Greece where virtually everyone is at least nominally an Orthodox Christian. My husband's extended family regularly vacations in Sithonia which is adjacent to Mount Athos.
Greeks tend to see priests is equals and know there are good and bad priests. They also know that there is corruption in some parts of the Orthodox Church. Still, the Orthodox Church is deeply embedded in Greek life and is, for the most part, a force for good.
I grew up in the United Church of Canada. This Church is a unification of Presbyterians, Methodists and Congregationalists. I still occasionally attend this Church.
It has been interesting to see how the Orthodox Church views Protestant Churches. Largely, they view them as an illegitimate offshoot. I can perhaps understand this attitude about Methodism, but Presbyterianism (the Church of Scotland) is one of the oldest Protestant Churches. The inability of the Orthodox Church to acknowledge some of the legitimate reasons for the Reformation leaves me to feel that the Orthodox Church sometimes denies the political history of the Western of Europe. It seems a little insular and out of touch on this account.
Strongly agree with all of this. While I have continually marveled at the beauty and power for the Orthodox faith, I have also seen in myself and others how that faith has been embodied in persistently self-serving ways. Of course, part of the wisdom of Orthodox spiritual practices is to put a check on those very tendencies. Even so, it can take a long time for some of us (okay, me) to work through the various "temptations" -- many of which you have detailed above. Some of this is unavoidable. We all start from a place of naiveté. And so the Beauty we encounter evokes zeal -- as it does in any "romantic" relationship. And, as in any such relationship, this zeal leads to excess and excess to distortion and often failure (it is not usually sustainable). This may lead to genuine humility -- or, more often, our best effort to affect it. Yet this is likely unavoidable (again) since we begin as deeply ego-centric folks. For such folks, genuine humility is an unknown land, so we bump along between various approximations of it until, perhaps, we begin to acquire a modicum of the genuine thing.
For me it has taken decades.
I am now more appreciative than ever of the Orthodox faith and its spiritual wisdom, while recognizing that my journey on this path has been a gradual process of shedding distortions and mistaken assumptions along the way. Reading the modern holy elders has often been very helpful in demonstrating the potentiality and vitality of the faith; at the same time, my experience has also made vividly clear to me what was vividly clear to others from the start: I am not one of them, and -- absent a staggering miracle -- will likely never experience or embody the faith as they did. My own aspirations, mixed as they were with an inherent lack of experience and an undisciplined imagination were perhaps unavoidably prone to delusion, but my focus too often was more on me - my path, my transformation, my experience, my potential in God.
None of this is surprising in retrospect; we all start out ego-centrically. Over time, I found freedom in letting go (okay, losing) that focus and instead simply growing to have a deeper appreciation of God's love. This the Orthodox faith contains in unimaginable abundance. We tend to lose sight of it when we become overly focused on the various means and methods used to support the process of growth and the path to communion with that love. Growing in that love and seeking to embody it faithfully is now more than enough. I have found that it is actually all I could ever want and more than I ever imagined.
Good article. Converting in my 50's after a long journey from Baptist, to Reformed, to Lutheran, and then to Orthodox, the pitfalls you mentioned seem rather foreign. My regret is not becoming Orthodox sooner in life, but you're not ready till you're ready.
I was baptized into the Orthodox Church in Germany, and I lived an hour away from my parish. For the first four years that I was Orthodox, I attended that church, and though I sang in the choir, I wasn't in any way involved in the running of the church (no parish board, etc) and I wasn't really even aware of any factions or politics of the place. My job as a new convert was to show up and take it all in, and participate as a "newbie". I know a lot of people - especially men - are itching to "lead" because they are so excited about Orthodoxy, but whether official or not, I think a four-year "hold" on putting new converts into leadership positions is about right.
I agree with you. There are the problems in orthodox Christian Church that you are telling about. In addition to that problems, I have noticed that even orthodox Church cannot cure believers' sins by means of the existing Church practices, and Church is unwilling to apply different means - psychology and Yoga, putting them in a christian sieve to sellect the relevant methods that can help believers cope with their sins. This is their problem, not every believer's problem. And I think that if someone is unwilling to do something, we should not force him or her to do that. This is their life and their way.
I'm